yes yes yesssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!played Fallout 3 and its expansion for 50+ hours and loved every minute of it.......cant wait to get my hands on this one....plllllllllzzzz dont disappoint Fallout:New Vegas.....

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	CoarseDragon - October 18, 2010 (12:07 PM) I am really looking forward to this game myself. You know I am feeling a little under the weather tomorrow now that I think about it.
	Suskie - October 18, 2010 (02:02 PM) IT'S MADE BY OBSIDIAN DON'T GET EXCITED YET
	fleinn - October 18, 2010 (02:20 PM) Yeah.. when we're playing the game - can we really bear all the console-mags criticising the game for not maintaining Fallout 3's core appeal: grinding non-stop for hours. I mean, by annoying us through forcing us past the dialogue and story obstacles. Or, by making the combat and movement around the dungeons tied up to a narrative, rather than the ammo count in your backpack. lol - I don't /know/, Suskie. Could be a real problem. :p
	Suskie - October 18, 2010 (02:32 PM) I was talking more about the fact that Obsidian has yet to release a finished game.
	zippdementia - October 18, 2010 (03:08 PM) I've been playing Fallout 3 again and am liking it much better this time. I've been keeping an interested eye on New Vegas for a long time and am eager to see what it does with the new formula.
	hmd - October 18, 2010 (03:30 PM)
	fleinn - October 18, 2010 (06:10 PM) "yet to release a finished game." ..true, that.
	zippdementia - October 18, 2010 (07:28 PM) HMD: I should point out that one of the reasons I'm enjoying F3 more this time is because I don't talk to people... and I kill them if they try to talk with me.
	Halon - October 18, 2010 (08:04 PM) I can guarantee that this will be the same as any Obsidian game. So this is Fallout 3.5, or Fallout 3 in a new setting with a few new features and an unfinished final 25% of the game. So I'll probably pick it up when Steam or someone has a 50% off sale next summer or so if I'm still interested. I enjoyed Fallout 3 overall (8/10 or so), though my complaints are different than the average person's. Repetitive character models/voices and poor story didn't really bother me since I've never really enjoyed a videogame story or fell in love with a particular character in a game.
	fleinn - October 19, 2010 (07:30 AM) ..about as buggy as Fallout 3, then.. Escapist: "What makes New Vegas satisfying is not how much choice it gives you as the player, but how much it limits you." Basically - it's not just "open world"(read: run around at random without a shred of aim, grinding until your brain melts and your body dies from dehydration) - it's a story inside the open world. So obviously it's going to be slaughtered by the usual reviews for not being what "Fallout" is all about :p lol
	Suskie - October 19, 2010 (07:52 AM) An Obsidian game is buggy? Gee, what a shock. I actually never noticed Fallout 3 being all that buggy, to be honest. My experience with it was relatively smooth.
	blood-omen - October 19, 2010 (08:18 AM) i agree with suskie.....my experience with Fallout 3 was quite smooth as well and i thought Fallout 3 was quite a finished product..... initially users have given Fallout:New Vegas higher ratings than websites......
	fleinn - October 19, 2010 (08:21 AM) *shrug* ..only speaking for me, obviously. But I had some sort of hic-up with every single quest I tried. The building with the traps and so on that leads you to the Rangers - I had to reload that several times, and start from the beginning, before the triggers handled properly and gave me the location at the end. Once they did, the dialogue scripts were still bent. When I went to their camp - they actually had nothing. It was just a bunch of text in a computer with a diary. I thought that was.. actually one of the most fleshed out quest in the game, though. Arroyo - went through that three times, trying to see the different outcomes. ..there actually aren't more than one. And if you try to go for the path that makes sense if you don't actually kill the psycho - you end up with quest-items that don't have corresponding triggers in the game-world. Letter to his sister, dialogue paths with the guard-guy that don't follow, etc. If you let him go back to the village - you don't actually get a reaction, or some sort of conclusion. Apparently he's just going to stay there and wait until he starts feasting on things.. and the quest ends. Just in the first city around the nuke, there are a bunch of timing errors in the day-night cycle that are annoying on the one hand - but they also break quests. If you assault the guy in the bar, you can easily be lucky enough to trigger the sheriff's first "warning" message in the middle of the fight. If you get the sheriff to go along with it, I ended up chasing that Burke fellow half across the town. And the sheriff started shooting people, who then killed him. ..and his son took over, and gave me a house. And that's on the first, nearest town, that everyone will visit. If you go across the map to the bug-hero town - there's so many scripting bugs that I started to wonder if it's some sort of meta-joke. Underworld - that's probably my favourite. The Zombies stay there, and you can't actually do anything down there except steal from their drawers. Then leave. There's a clue I was supposed to get there, I think, about the cyborg. But since I declined to decide whether to be a total bastard, and hunt the thing down. Or else pledge loyalty to some branch of the post-apocalyptical tree-hugging league - who in this world had transferred their compassion to machines - the trigger wasn't actually set. There's this guy who threatens you for a pair of sexy underwear. Where does that come from? Never saw the guy again. There's the part where you find the orphaned kid right before it - that quest has no branches, just options at the end - and that quest actually locked up once. I kid you not. It doesn't depend on anything you do on that location - but it locked up. ...the things that are unfinished in that game can fill a small book on it's own, even in shorthand. Imo, in Fallout 3 the best parts were the small set pieces without any dialogue, like the tower with the Rangers, the part where you find the first laser pistol (which is the one and only space in the entire game where you use the surroundings for anything at all), etc. Not because I don't like a free-roaming world. But because there's just not enough content in it that fits in the universe. "Steal the Declaration of Independence". Now that has charm - making a dungeon crawl without any events whatsoever out of it does not. Just compare that with the original two fallout games - apart from the random encounters, there's one single side-quest without some sort of strafing impact on the narrative (the Brotherhood quest-The Glow). And even that is an endlessly more fleshed out quest than anything ever seen in Fallout3.. And that quest too can be an overture to a pretty different solution and end to the main quest. Think that bears to be mentioned.. :) ..then there's the actual hangs. On my playthrough, I had several solid hangs. Other than the G.O.A.T. test problem at the beginning, where the game still runs. I mean, solid freezes. As the game progressed, and the saves started to bloat up to several megabytes, the freezes would increase. That's pretty amazing. After I restarted the game, and reinstalled the game - I actually came a bit further in the main quest. But it turns out that as I started to pick up the side-quests again, I got the hangs back. ..which was kind of a blessing for me, because it tortured me to go through and listen to the quests and the dialogue anyway.. ..sorry. I don't mean to troll anyone, or offend anyone. But it was good to get that off my chest..
	Suskie - October 19, 2010 (08:37 AM) You're actually far from the first person I've heard say Fallout 3 is buggy, and I've always been confused about that. It's been a while since I've played it but I can't think of a single major bug I ran into.
	blood-omen - October 19, 2010 (10:33 AM) i actually feel sorry for fleinn that he had such a bad experience with Fallout 3....i too cant remember any major bugs that i came across with it.....
	overdrive - October 19, 2010 (11:38 AM) I played Fallout 3 with a friend for a couple days. The only real bug I noticed was that we had to redo the fight with the big queen ant in that area with the fire-breathing ants because the game glitched it into the wall partway through the fight.
	zippdementia - October 19, 2010 (12:46 PM) Are you guys shitting me? I come across several bugs every time I play. Freezes are the most common. I agree with everything Fleinn said and I would add that Fallout 3 falls into an uncomfortable grey area of "realism" that doesn't do it any favors. For instance, opening a metal box (the equivalent of a treasure chest) to find coffee mugs is frustrating. It creates this whole meta-game thing where you have to collect a bunch of shit, run back to town to sell it, and through that long process get some actual money. The game would be much more fun if you just found some bottlecaps and skipped the whole re-sale part. Bethesda does this a lot. They claim to be trying to make games that make sense (so you wouldn't just have caps lying around in boxes) but then they also have a system wherein your crippled limbs heal if you just sleep for a bit. See, I'm okay with that whole sleep=heal thing. It's a game. It shouldn't make complete sense. It should just be fun. And sometimes, Fallout 3 is shockingly unfun. That said, I do get a lot of enjoyment out of the game but it is critical to note that the most fun parts of the game are those where you aren't playing< the game as intended. What I mean is that it's best when you are just wandering around creating your own stories and goals. It's a nice little sandbox world. The actual quests as set forth by Bethesda suck and the conversations that accompany them hurt my ears.
	hmd - October 19, 2010 (01:22 PM) They claim to be trying to make games that make sense[...] Then they immediately shoot themselves in the foot with an insulting moral choice over whether or not to blow up an entire town with a nuclear bomb. It's baffling to see just how straight-faced they play this shit.
	Suskie - October 19, 2010 (01:34 PM) I want to add that degrading weapons need to fuck off and die. It is, hilarious, an attempt at realism that is actually stiflingly unrealistic. Worst example is still System Shock 2, where 95% of the guns you pick up are jammed, even if you get it from an enemy that was just using it.
	zippdementia - October 19, 2010 (02:24 PM) Yes, I agree. While I do enjoy repairing my own equipment, it gets stupid when I have to carry eighteen leather jackets around just to keep patching up the one I'm wearing. I like aspects of a degrading weapon/armour system. I liked the system in Far Cry 2, with the jamming guns, but then it was pretty easy/cheap to get more guns RIGHT AWAY. It didn't slow down the action, is what I'm saying. Fallout 3, and most Bethesda games, continually slow themselves to a crawl with all their "innovative" systems. It's like they've forgotten that games should be games before they are simulators of life's annoyances.
	Halon - October 19, 2010 (02:45 PM) I actually liked the degrading equipment because it actually made scavenging items worthwhile. It also forced you to think about what to bring since you would need to save room in your inventory for spares and couldn't just walk around with unlimited firepower. It would've been annoying if the guns had different stats like Borderlands but having a million guns would've killed the idea of the game. The only part that was a slight pain was dropping and sorting through everything, which probably took a good 5 hours out of the 65 or so that I put into the game and its expansions. I didn't really view it as an attempt at realism, though. Regarding crashes, I played the PC version and got a crash about once every 4 hours or so. It's pretty much a given that a PC version will be more buggy than a console counterpart unless the console version is a port or something.
	hmd - October 20, 2010 (12:00 AM) GAME OF THE YEAR
	jerec - October 20, 2010 (04:11 AM) That was freaky... I might wait a bit for this one. They'll probably patch it up soon. I know Fallout 3 had a few updates to fix things.
	zippdementia - October 20, 2010 (08:38 AM) Bwa haa haa heee heee heee... that's awesome...
	True - October 20, 2010 (09:03 AM) I want to add that degrading equipment needs to fuck off and die. It is, hilariously, an attempt at realism that is actually stiflingly unrealistic. Worst example is still System Shock 2, where 95% of the guns you pick up are jammed, even if you get it from an enemy that was just using it. Dead Rising 2 is fairly bad with that as well. Every three/four swings it seems my bat breaks. It's annoying. You can make really cool weapons, and they're not hard to do, but you constantly have to go back to make more.
	blood-omen - October 20, 2010 (09:16 AM) i loved Fallout 3 for everything it was and im getting this game too...........annoyances and bugs here i come :D
	blood-omen - October 20, 2010 (10:56 AM) IGN gives Fallout:New Vegas an 8.5......
	zippdementia - October 20, 2010 (12:29 PM) Out of curiousity, Bomen, you seem extremely attached to Fallout 3 and staunchly in favor of it. Is this based just off of your gaming experience or do you harbor some slightly irrational love for the game (like I do for, say, Chrono Trigger or Shadow of the Colossus)?
	jerec - October 20, 2010 (12:32 PM) Nobody who uses that many exclamation marks could be rational about anything.
	Suskie - October 20, 2010 (01:27 PM) WE'LL LEARN RIGHT QUICK IF YOU GOT BACK ALL YOUR FACULTIES
	hmd - October 20, 2010 (10:40 PM)
	blood-omen - October 21, 2010 (08:33 AM) @zipped.....its purely based on my gaming experience..... @jerec...thanx for the compliment and exclamation marks rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gamespot gives the Xbox 360 version a 7.5 and news has arrived that patches are being released this coming tuesday...... sad to hear reviews being pulled just because of bad scores......
	zippdementia - October 21, 2010 (10:33 AM) OKay, but let's think critically about this, Bomen. Obviously, Fallout 3 isn't the incredibly universally revolutionary experience you think it is. My question is why do you think it is? What in particular did the game do for you that has caused so many exclamation marks? I'm not contesting that you liked the game but at this point you've defended it a lot without actually ever explaining WHY it is good. At this point we've leveled our complaints (though note I still enjoy the game despite my complaints, because I enjoy a post-apocalyptic setting and I find the difficulty to be about what I like out of shooters). I only think it fair that you give us some insight into why you liked it so much... if it is based solely off gaming experience, what was that gaming experience? And sorry, just saying it was really fun won't cut it for me any more.
	CoarseDragon - October 21, 2010 (11:40 AM) Less than a day off the shelf and there are already patches. So there are bugs and I hate that but I never really had any problems with Fallout 3 and so far I have had no issues with Fallout: New Vegas. So far the game is pretty good but disappointing that they [Obsidian] really did not update it much from F3 and they could have done so much. So far it is enjoyable.
	blood-omen - October 21, 2010 (01:16 PM) @zipped.....well, the setting was great....u know u are alone in this open world, able to do what u want.....then u had the choices, plus the perks.....u could try and bluff people...the weapons.....the mini-nuke launcher.....the creatures.....giant cockroaches, ants and the mutants etc.......night turns into day and day turns into night.......the world that u see in Fallout 3 is so immersive and something that would really be there after a nuclear war......broken buildings, monuments,new religions, people trying to make ends meet, paper money is no longer the currency......the VATS and the slow motion........need i go on???????
	CouchPotato - October 21, 2010 (03:50 PM) I have never played tabletop RPGs, but i played Fallout 3 a little bit (16 hours). Can someone tell me how tabletop RPGs work, and their similarities with Fallout 3 in terms of problem-solving-method ? Thanks
	zigfried - October 21, 2010 (06:15 PM) In terms of problem solving, I don't think Fallout 3 is similar to tabletop RPGs at all, unless you have a horrible gamemaster (example in a moment). Tabletop RPGs involve collaborative problem solving -- each player contributes to overcome an obstacle, but no one is expected to do it alone. And then there's the gamemaster himself -- a good GM will adjust the game to match the players' actions. The result is that the team of players will often come up with an exceptionally creative and unexpected solution to a perceived problem, or they won't come up with a solution at all.... and the GM will then change the story to circumvent the problem, so that the players don't get bored and go home. People may wander in circles during a computer RPG, but only an idiot gamemaster lets his players wander in circles during a tabletop RPG. Good GM example: During a session of Star Frontiers, the players are at the spaceport waiting for the shuttle to take them to their assignment. One of the players decides to be a jerk-ass and start shooting civilians. The GM has a police squad "happen to show up" and arrest the lunatic (and the young accomplice who decided Mr Jerkass was the coolest guy ever), to make him cool his heels for a bit and learn a lesson. But Mr Jerkass is really smart and plays the game and escapes from the police and goes on the lam. The game evolves from the intended mission into a game of cat and mouse as two groups of players try to outwit each other. This was a rare situation where the GM put the opposing sides into two separate rooms. He would then walk between the rooms to learn our next actions... and then bring us together to share the results. It was pretty fun, although the group eventually got tired of it so Mr Jerkass got crammed into a cell without a toilet. Spikes then shot up from the floor and pierced his body. The next time that group played Star Frontiers, Mr Jerkass had to start with a new -- and weaker -- character. He played nice that time. Fallout 3 is nothing like that. Bad GM experience: A group of friends all walk up to a club in Shadowrun. At the door, the guard demands we hand over all our weapons. Fair enough request, but we know it's a trap, so we all try to hang onto a hidden gun somewhere. The GM doesn't let us. "You must deposit all weapons." We resist as much as possible, but he continues to inform us that we "must deposit all weapons." After we reach the point of visibly annoying the GM with our resistance, we relent. Then we are all in the club, sitting at a table, when assassins start shooting at us. So when one person's turn comes up, he says he's going to kick over the table. "Roll for strength check." He fails, so the table does not get kicked over and he gets shot. Not quite dead yet, but wounded. The next person says he wants to try to kick over the table, but the GM won't let us do that. We already tried it once and it didn't work. The person insists "I WANT TO KICK OVER THE TABLE", so the GM rolls the dice. "You failed. You are shot in the arm." We happen to find a box of guns stashed under the table (!!!) and pick them up. An incredibly long, drawn-out, and boring gunfight ensues that results in the death of everyone. While this is taking place, people leave the game to go to the comic shop, then return to discover that they have died. The people who did not go to the comic shop also end up dead, proving that the smart thing to do was not play the game. Afterwards, the GM informed us that we should have rushed the assassins to engage in close-range melee. In other words, there really was a problem, and there really was a solution, and to play the game in any other way was pointless. That's Fallout 3. //Zig
	zippdementia - October 21, 2010 (06:43 PM) Zig, how is it you manage to outshine us even on the forums? What an example. Perfect. Perfect. I might blatantly steal it for an upcoming Fallout 3 review. I'll even give you credit. As for debating it, I'm not really debating anything! I just wanted Blood Omen to explain his feelings with more than exclamation marks. It makes for better conversation, I think.
	blood-omen - October 22, 2010 (08:20 AM) i agree.....that was some example by zig..... and i hope that i have explained my love a bit better for fallout 3......and i do agree, it does make for better conversation..... getting New Vegas tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
	zippdementia - October 22, 2010 (12:14 PM) Beware of bugs. Let us know what you think. You might want to read the review of the game at Gameroni, which I think captures both the good and bad of the game.