Forums > HGWars > HGWars: The Epic Sticky

I am of the firmly held opinion that the beast is a perfectly viable class at present, and to prove it I'll abandon my very successful thief character and holdings and start from scratch with a beast character.

This is as good a place as any to announce that the cycle will indeed be exended until the end of May to ensure that I can add late-game content to keep things interesting longer than the two weeks or so worth of content that exists right now. There's already enough to keep casual players busy for more than a month, most likely, but I'd like to reward any eventual hardcore players--if they come--with continuing content that will keep them busy for at least a full month. That means testing it, which is the reason behind the extension.

By the way, if anyone else is thoroughly convinced that he or she messed up his evolution or has picked a broken class (though from what I can see in the back end there are no broken classes), speak up in the next little bit and I'll delete your character in the event that you want to restart.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy on reality

"What if everything you see is more than what you see--the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it, or you accept that there is much more to the world than you think. Perhaps it really is a doorway, and if you choose to go inside, you'll find many unexpected things." - Shigeru Miyamoto

Question: how many points do mercenaries add to a skill?

"fuck yeah oblivion" - Jihad

3.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy on reality

"What if everything you see is more than what you see--the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it, or you accept that there is much more to the world than you think. Perhaps it really is a doorway, and if you choose to go inside, you'll find many unexpected things." - Shigeru Miyamoto

I dunno, Jsson. I'm finding it difficult to imagine beasts ever really attaining the ridiulous 200-400 ratings that regular classes achieve through gear, or, at the very least, I don't see them achieving those at the same time as everyone else, thus putting them at a disadvantage and making them worthless in battle.

I mean, look at geo's stats, and he's 74ish:

Vital Stats... ATK STR RES AGL LCK
Before Equipment 96 150 17 2 63
After Equipment 91 140 32 17 103

Everyone else has like 150 in agility/luck alone, practically, with 250 in the more important ones at his level.

What espiga does in his free time
[Eating EmP's brain] probably isn't a good idea. I mean... He's British, which means his brain's wired for PAL and your eyes are NTSC. - Will

Geo put all of his efforts into energy, though. He's not indicative of the class as a whole.

Considering a beast gets 3 ATK per level and one extra skill point over everyone else (which can be used for ATK without putting the beast at a disadvantage), that's around 300 ATK at level 75 (more than my thief had at that stage in the game even with strong weapons equipped).

There's no guarantee that a player will be smart about leveling up his beast, but players who want to really emphasize attack can turn the class into a brutal weapon of destruction more easily than any other class can.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy on reality

"What if everything you see is more than what you see--the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it, or you accept that there is much more to the world than you think. Perhaps it really is a doorway, and if you choose to go inside, you'll find many unexpected things." - Shigeru Miyamoto

The simple fact is that equipment completly denulls the beast's superior stat gains. Equipment comes a lot easier and a lot sooner than it would take for these extra stats to level them out. It's a lost cause.

But, sure, if you don't believe me, knock yoursef out.

For us. For them. For you.

The only reason beasts seem lackluster at the moment is because there are no decent high level beasts. Beasts are a very late-game class, because at that point their extra gold and stats start to truly shine, as opposed to mid-early game where other classes are able to use equipment as a crutch.

The following people can die:
Kieran
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This list will grow as I think of more people. Goodbye.

Yes, and Beasts will make that class considerabbly slower because poeple with stats sometnes 100 points more supeior than them will be squashing them flat and stealing their lunch money while their attacks barely ever top 1.

I tried to use my character as a test crutch but it all became completly pointless. Just not as pointless as the beast class as a whole.

For us. For them. For you.

To be fair, ALL classes are going to reach it that slow at this point in the games life because your only attack options are level 70+ characters so it's pretty much a moot point.

The following people can die:
Kieran
Homosexuals

This list will grow as I think of more people. Goodbye.

I just did the official math. Beasts that assign their single extra skill point to ATK by default are able to do about 6% more damage at level 60 than a fully-equipped soldier (which is the second most powerful physical attack class, after the beast). This is official math, not me believing whatever I want to believe. Players who level with an eye on ATK can also make that lead even more severe, which is part of the strategy of playing the game.

There is a lack of balance for defensive equipment, but it's one that doesn't effect JUST the beast class. It affects all classes. I will be dropping the defensive value of each type of defensive equipment by about 20%, which will result in a shift in balance toward the proper levels that I had in mind.

I am also increasing the defensive stat boost that beasts receive at each level, because otherwise the class will not have the proper balance to compete with defensive gear of classes.

Naturally, none of this has changed the pre-existing fact that if the player wishes it, the beast will be more powerful in the ATK rating than any other class ever can. Period.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy on reality

"What if everything you see is more than what you see--the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it, or you accept that there is much more to the world than you think. Perhaps it really is a doorway, and if you choose to go inside, you'll find many unexpected things." - Shigeru Miyamoto

Yeah, i'm really finding my ATK going through the roof. This was posted earlier in the thread:
"
I mean, look at geo's stats, and he's 74ish:

Vital Stats... ATK STR RES AGL LCK
Before Equipment 96 150 17 2 63
After Equipment 91 140 32 17 103"

Meanwhile here are mine, top scores before equip bottom ones after:
ATK STR RES AGL LCK
195 66 34 2 1
220 64 31 4 NEGATIVE FOUR HELL YES.

I'm only level 32. Whoever that guy is fucked up when assigning stat points.

The following people can die:
Kieran
Homosexuals

This list will grow as I think of more people. Goodbye.

Alright. Using geo was a bad example, I admit.

It's true enough about the attack stat, sure, but I'm wondering about elsewhere, especially the defenses. Defense will probably play a larger role than attack in the long run because it's so vital to the successful defense of robbing raids. And since beast's have a natural weakness to magic classes, those classes will tear inot them like butter.

Though, it is good you're planning on raising their natural defense because that seemed unproportionately low compared to their attack. And by weaening equipment, maybe that'll help somewhat.

What espiga does in his free time
[Eating EmP's brain] probably isn't a good idea. I mean... He's British, which means his brain's wired for PAL and your eyes are NTSC. - Will

Right now my strategy for Beast is working out like this:
Since I have no equipment to buy, I have but one thing to invest my gold into: Land. Swamp Land has an incredible gold per minute to gold to purchase ratio, which is equal to Murky Well. You do not lose too much by choosing not to buy the Murky Well and instead purchasing just the land. As a result, if I own no buildings, it's impossible to rob me and my defense plays no role there.

Of course, this won't fly forever. I'm simply gaining a stockpile of gold using the most efficient property purchases possible while I wait and see what properties and buildings turn out to be the most efficient investment opportunities, then I will pick them. After all the gold investment math I did, I am not losing too terribly much gold per minute by not investing into buildings any more than I need to invest into them to grab fortress(es).

As far as stats go, i'm putting the majority of my investment into Attack, with smaller considerations to Defense and Resistance. I'm strongly considering not raising defense at all, instead focusing on overpowering melee classes through superior attack, using Mercenaries to pick up the remaining strength I need to survive their attacks. And boy howdy will I ever have a lot of mercenaries, since the gold you spend on equipment, i spend on mercs and land.

Yes, I will lose to casters, but there's an old saying: You can't win them all. There's no reason to even try winning them all, because you won't. The stat setup i'm using allows me to pick the ones I want to win, and pick the ones I want to lose. If some other melee character is rounding out their stats to do well against all types, I will beat them far more often than they will beat me. It all falls into place rather nicely.

Will all this work out? Maybe, who knows. I still have 40 levels to go before I know for sure, and with zero other beasts that seem to have any semblance of strategy I don't exactly have a strong model to compare to. We'll find out, but I think the stat gains I gain versus the ones others gain, I will come out on top in the 80s level range far more often than any other class comes out on top.

The following people can die:
Kieran
Homosexuals

This list will grow as I think of more people. Goodbye.

For the record, when I increase the stat gains for characters, I also go back and retroactively add the points that they would've missed. If any beasts see a sudden jump in their STR rating, that's why.

I've updated equipment so that the defensive bonuses aren't as absurdly high. This will make things better for all classes on the offense but still makes equipment a necessary part of your budgeting if you're a non-beast. As always, where you choose to assign your skill points is of the utmost importance.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy on reality

"What if everything you see is more than what you see--the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it, or you accept that there is much more to the world than you think. Perhaps it really is a doorway, and if you choose to go inside, you'll find many unexpected things." - Shigeru Miyamoto

I avoided the beast class like the plague, so it doesn't come under my jurisdiction of comments.

On the other hand, what I'm noticing now in the game is a huge disparity between those who are on the leaderboards and those who aren't. there seems to be no way for the lower level players to affect the higher ones, or even to match their growth rate.

Note to gamers: when someone shoots you in the face, they aren't "gay." They are "psychopathic."

It's not so bad once you reach the 30s. Unfortunately that is going to take forever.

The following people can die:
Kieran
Homosexuals

This list will grow as I think of more people. Goodbye.

Damned if it isn't. I'm level 42, and there's no way I can achieve the growth rate of those 92 bastards. By the time I can achieve it, they'll be even further ahead.

Note to gamers: when someone shoots you in the face, they aren't "gay." They are "psychopathic."

I gained level 40 off of killing Bloomer, a level 79 monk.

Just play smart, pick your targets wisely, and make sure you always initiate the attack and don't leave yourself open to be attacked. The attacker always attacks first, and you want to be the one to hit first so you can pray you hit them while they were low on health and regenerating.

Edit: Nevermind, looking at your stats I think I see the problem. Where are you distributing your points? You're a level 41 soldier, and you only have an attack base of 70. It's going to be considerably difficult to take down even same-leveled players with that, you simply won't hit hard enough. Are you putting points into Health and Energy or something?

The following people can die:
Kieran
Homosexuals

This list will grow as I think of more people. Goodbye.

No. It's mostly because I haven't been upgrading gear. Attacking people is almost completely worthless. It doesn't get you much gold or drop them enough on the leaderboards to matter. Far more effective is to get properties and build them up.

Note to gamers: when someone shoots you in the face, they aren't "gay." They are "psychopathic."

Zipp, not everything can be to your utter complete satisfaction. With the features that have been added recently, I think there is enough depth to warrant battles since you can win a LOT of cash from robbing people. And if you're stuck at 20% output, your income is grossly less than what it would normally be.

For example, I woke up this morning to find that vince had completely destroyed me. Normally I make 1234 income; with all my buildings rendered almost inoperable (minimum 20%), I was only making 931ish, which can make a huge difference.

The leaderboards still fluctuate. It's who ends up on top in the end after all. Even if someone remains on top throughout the majority of the cycle, if they decide to purchase stuff last minute or something, that could sacrifice their spot. And, well, it's better that people start from the moment the cycle begins in order to have the most advantage, but for those who don't, they still have chances even if they don't. And, if not, that's what the cycle system is in place for - to give everyone another chance with the game so that they can start from the most advantageous position.

I personally am satisfied with everything that's been done here so far. Will it need tweaking? Probably, but this is still a beta-phase after all. I think you're about the only person still dissatisfied with how this has turned out, with the exception of EmP who'll forever bitch aboout beasts, but damn - Vince is really showing everyone up with that class right onw. o.o

What espiga does in his free time
[Eating EmP's brain] probably isn't a good idea. I mean... He's British, which means his brain's wired for PAL and your eyes are NTSC. - Will

Don't worry Wolfqueen -- with all the money you earned from my failed robberies, you can probably still rebuild and break even.

//Zig

Unlimited Zig Works!

There is a lack of balance for defensive equipment, but it's one that doesn't effect JUST the beast class. It affects all classes. I will be dropping the defensive value of each type of defensive equipment by about 20%, which will result in a shift in balance toward the proper levels that I had in mind.

Seriously? The impression I've been getting over the last few days is that between me and the higher level players, it's pretty much always a one hit kill for whoever manages to take the initiative. Of course, this may be because I'm a paladin and most of them are casters, but nonetheless, I didn't get the impression that defenses ratings were too high. Between this kind of combat and the fact that virtually nobody bothers repairing their buildings right now - presumably because they get broken again in minutes - I rather had the impression that offense rules the day right now.

''Yes, yes...but apart from all that, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?''

I'm with Sashanan, although the ridiculous offense might be an offshoot of high defense ratings.

In other words, equipment provided so much defense (numerically) that people just poured everything they had into offense. Maybe.

Another issue with people not rebuilding is because -- how can you maintain buildings when a level 95 player has 40 to 70 mercs ready to bring it all down? For buildings and robberies to really work, there needs to be a level cap (although 5 levels is too small. 10 to 15 would be better, I think). As it is now, it's just something to do when you're stronger than everyone else... as opposed to being a give-and-take competition between like-powered players.

//Zig

Unlimited Zig Works!