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Forums > HGWars > HGWars: The Epic Sticky

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Author: honestgamer (Mod)
Posted: April 01, 2009 (01:26 AM)
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HGWars has now progressed past the "intensive testing" phase and (at the time of this posting) is now entering its open beta phase. This is the thread for discussion pertaining to the game, and this is the section of the forums where you should bring any concerns, bug reports or boasting related to the project. You can find the game at:

http://www.hgwars.com/

What is HGWars? It's a browser-based game designed to allow HonestGamers users (and their friends and anyone else who cares to join up) to battle one another in a fantasy world. The whole thing is very low-tech--by design--but it can still be great fun to build a character and battle other regulars on the site.

I hope that you'll all enjoy participating in the game. Hopefully, it'll be a huge success and we'll be able to give away all sorts of prizes to its players. Hopefully, you'll tell friends and help turn it into something even bigger. Let the battles begin!


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy on reality

"What if everything you see is more than what you see--the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it, or you accept that there is much more to the world than you think. Perhaps it really is a doorway, and if you choose to go inside, you'll find many unexpected things." - Shigeru Miyamoto


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Author: aschultz
Posted: April 03, 2009 (02:57 PM)
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As per the other thread I'll try to pin down the refresh problem I'm seeing. It has to do with the "heal" command not popping up if, say, you're taken down to 5 damage but not killed...I've had it happen several times there, but nothing else.

Here are the (low priority) typos:

"Kicked your butt" should have lower case k
"sleeping aruond" should be "sleeping around"
"Monacle of Mystery" should be "Monocle of Mystery"


My principal said, 'Emo, Emo, Emo.'
I said 'I'm the one in the middle, you lousy drunk!'
-- Emo Phillips


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Author: pickhut
Posted: April 03, 2009 (03:14 PM)
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I have yet to play this game.

But I will! Someday...


I head spaceshit noises


This message was administratively deleted because it did not adhere to site guidelines, or because a user other than BeercePreva requested its removal.

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Author: wolfqueen001
Posted: April 03, 2009 (05:54 PM)
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I've had some sort of error a few times where I'd get get the message for if you tried praying more times than you're allowed... I'm guessing. I've never actually prayed before, but the message suggested it (the one that says something like "The goddess descended.... "No. NO cheating" or something). This occurred when opting to take jobs again, but it hasn't happened recently.

Other typos include: "fiersome beast" should be "fearsome beast" in the defender counteratack miss. Can't remember anymore right now.


What espiga does in his free time
[Eating EmP's brain] probably isn't a good idea. I mean... He's British, which means his brain's wired for PAL and your eyes are NTSC. - Will


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Author: aschultz
Posted: April 03, 2009 (06:04 PM)
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Wow--that's interesting news. About the thief and the other prayer message. Clerics get another message, actually.

I found another small bug--this is actually on the forums too. If you click to the link describing HG points from the prayer page, you get a blank page. Similarly if you click the (?) next to a link in the forum, you get an unknown link. Might as well lump them all in.

Might as well write this while I'm recuperating from wolfqueen's last attack :)

Edited to add: I think a handy feature would be "dump all money with Chuckles" or even to be able to set a percentage to dump with Chuckles...don't know how tricky that sort of cookie would be. It's about the only part of the interface I find awkward.


My principal said, 'Emo, Emo, Emo.'
I said 'I'm the one in the middle, you lousy drunk!'
-- Emo Phillips


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Author: zippdementia
Posted: April 03, 2009 (11:13 PM)
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I'm officially going to start abusing the bounty system. All higher levels players should rejoice. You'll get instant money, all because of me! All you have to do is slay all the people I put up every day.

And attacking me will do you no good. The only people who can beat me don't get anything for it.


Note to gamers: when someone shoots you in the face, they aren't "gay." They are "psychopathic."


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Author: overdrive (Mod)
Posted: April 04, 2009 (12:02 AM)
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I know I got one of your bounties!

Of course, some bastard got the one on me......


I'm not afraid to die because I am invincible
Viva la muerte, that's my goddamn principle


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Author: zippdementia
Posted: April 04, 2009 (01:00 AM)
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The leaderboards are a bit broken... I mean, you could easily never spend your wealth and become the highest holder in the land. There's no need to get levels once you unlock the wine smuggling mission, and attacks don't really affect you.

In other browser games, for instance Archmage, being attacked is a serious set back if you lose, forcing you to spend many turns rebuilding.

In HGwars, much as I like it, losing battles doesn't have any real consequence. In fact, it can be HELPFUL, because if you die, no one can attack you for a while.

Let's look at it from a meta-gaming standpoint. The only REAL thing of worth in the game is gold. EXP even is just a way to get MORE gold (through better missions). Because gold can be instantly put into the vault and just saved for either leader-boards or more swag, there's no risk. Anyone can win by just being patient. And no-one can really affect anyone else, unless by chance they catch them at the few seconds before they spend their money or drop it in the vault again.

A resurrection fee would go a long ways towards fixing this. Of course, then you'd also have to fix the bug that allows you to attack anyone. And you'd have to accept that people might have to start characters over, or get donations from others, if they died without money to resurrect.

But I think it adds a nice element of risk (and gloating for the victors).


Note to gamers: when someone shoots you in the face, they aren't "gay." They are "psychopathic."


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Author: bloomer
Posted: April 04, 2009 (05:19 AM)
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Re: Zipp's musings. Yes, combat was fun when working it out. But especially if you're ahead level wise, you gain nothing from it. Basically, everyone can gain from you. If they can do a little damage, they can fap you through attrition then get a big xp jump which is easily worth it. Being where I am, I can't get anything from anyone. All I do is attack someone who fapped me during the night (EG Overdrive) for some kind of cold vengeance. And maybe 1 xp. Or grant them signifcant xp if they dodge. :) So I concede I no longer see the point of fighting. For the leaderboard, money is the go, and for battle, being higher level wise gives you nothing to fight for. Maybe we need some dragons, hehe.


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Author: wolfqueen001
Posted: April 04, 2009 (09:11 AM)
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The thing about Zipp's resurrection idea, though, is it's already extremely easy to die in battle, especially against certain classes. For example, those clerics can one-shot any physical classes if they get the first hit in, and since everyone's doing this at such a fast pace, getting the first hit in from anyone is quite achievable within rapid succession, so people would be dying left and right and having to pay x amount each time.

The same could theoretically be said for physical classes attacking magical ones - most can kill in one hit... but the physical ones seem weaker in that regard because from what I've seen, the magical classes have way higher strength than the physical ones get resistance. I, for example, have not been able to knock out any cleric or other magical class with a blow that did 150 or more.

The other thing is, if such a fee were implemented, it'd have to draw from the vault since no one will likely be carrying that much on them. But maybe that part of it wouldn't be that hard to do.

EDIT: Take that back. Just looked at some magic classes and their strength through equipment is about the same (or maybe even less) than physical classes' resistance through equipment. However, their attack and resistance boosts through equipment is far superior to our physical attack and strength booss from equipment (for the most part), so that makes up the insane amount of damage they can do. But still, the point is, this demonstrates just how easy it is to die, and so a resurrection fee might not work as well as it perhaps should if dying weren't so easy.


What espiga does in his free time
[Eating EmP's brain] probably isn't a good idea. I mean... He's British, which means his brain's wired for PAL and your eyes are NTSC. - Will


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Author: zippdementia
Posted: April 04, 2009 (12:12 PM)
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The point is, something has to be done to allow players to affect other players gold. Right now, there is NOTHING anyone can do to another player's gold, as long as it's in a vault. So the whole game kind've falls apart.


Note to gamers: when someone shoots you in the face, they aren't "gay." They are "psychopathic."


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Author: overdrive (Mod)
Posted: April 04, 2009 (01:09 PM)
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To go off what others have said:

1. In the grand scheme of things, there is no real inducement to pick fights with others. With the unlimited vault, anyone can immediately save 85 percent of their cash, meaning the only way you'll earn real money for fighting is if you get lucky enough to drill someone who's been absent for a number of hours who's bought a lot of property and is getting a hefty chunk of change per minute OR if there's a bounty on that person.

2. Speaking of bounties, other than "for the hell of it", there is no reason to put a bounty on someone. Let's say that I'm sick of ASchultz killing me dead with regularity, so I put a bounty on him. (a) after he gets killed, he'll be back within minutes and, as someone mentioned, the only real "penalty" for death is spending "x" amount of time not being able to fight or be fought. (b) I'd get nothing for it, but someone else would get $1800 or so. The leaderboard is based on who has the most cash on hand and in their vault and unless I'm wrong, that's the sole thing that the end-of-cycle winner is determined by. So, why would I want to put a bounty on anyone if I get no benefit from it, but someone else gets extra money?

3. And with the emphasis being purely on cash collection and not being on fighting, it leaves smart players with a pretty linear path to being in victory contention. They should (a) buy properties so they don't have to be online constantly to keep money rolling in. With our last trial run, I was getting about $40,000 per five-hour period money keeps coming in when you're not playing; (b) only buy equipment that helps out luck (to ensure you fail as few missions as possible); (c) don't bother with with fortresses as if you're not fighting, the luck mercenary would be the only one you want.....and the cost/reward ratio would be very against you AND (d) put all your stat points into energy (to do more jobs) and luck (to succeed most of the time).


Right now, this is basically a money-acquiring game where you fight people for the hell of it. We need to figure out ways to make battling more of a necessity. If it wasn't so easy to get one-shot kills, I'd suggest making a dead character inactive (as in no actions and no money collection from properties) for, say, 30 minutes to an hour unless they paid a fee to be resurrected. Or maybe a maximum amount (obviously not too much) that can be stored in the vault, so people would have to carry around larger sums of money, making it more lucrative to attack people. Maybe have bounties worth more, with the person who sets the bounty getting the "Chuckles' 15%" upon success, so they'd have a real reason for wanting to set one.

EDIT: And another idea would be to set stat guidelines for doing all jobs except for the first couple (either base stats or stats w/ equipment factored in). So if someone wants to bring in boatloads of money by spamming the Ale Smuggling mission, they have to, say, spend a lot of time bulking up a couple of stats to even be able to take it.


I'm not afraid to die because I am invincible
Viva la muerte, that's my goddamn principle


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Author: honestgamer (Mod)
Posted: April 04, 2009 (01:16 PM)
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There absolutely must be a way for the player's gold at some point to not be affected. If you think the game falls apart now, you should see how bad it would be if the vault didn't exist and players could do precisely what you propose. Before long at all, no one would bother to play because anyone collecting money would be unable to save up for properties. There would be no way to grow as a character because any money would almost immediately be stolen by 2 or 3 of the toughest players. Putting full level caps on things--as has repeatedly been proposed--flat out will not work because then the game would be punishing the players who get into it the most and become the strongest.

This is the old "be careful what you wish for" scenario brought to full light. Any change as fundamental as the ones proposed here could and would entirely change the face of the game. It doesn't take a whole lot of thought to see how things would quickly fall apart.

I agree with the general sentiment that prompted the suggestions, that there needs to be something to prevent the game from simply becoming an experience where people sit around taking turns to add a handful of gold and see no incentive to attack. There are a few things to keep in mind, though.

One is that bounties exist and at higher levels will start to be a genuinely great way to collect cash. Things should soon level out so that players can't win just by real estate, because income from bounties would always give other (stronger) players a long-term advantage in ability to raise funds. This system exists to give that extra incentive, so that players pour as much energy into buffing characters as they do turning into money-grubbing workers. Bounties will probably be increased to that effect, because they're still not quite the reward that they should be.

Another thing to remember is that the 0 new users who have signed up outside of the HonestGamers existing community predictably haven't made any impact on the game at all. Normally, a game of this sort thrives when there are a lot of people joining, but we haven't been blessed with many of those... OR ANY WHATSOEVER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. Less experienced players of the casual variety are critical for the sort of experience that HGWars looks to create. They're the ones leveling poorly and making good targets of themselves as they learn how things work. They're the ones saying "Screw that, I'm not giving Chuckles any money!" and getting robbed blind by smarter players.

I hope you can see why the lack of significant growth would be demoralizing for me. I'm pleased by the number of HG users who have joined and are having fun with the game. After spending hours and hours developing and tweaking the game--with help from several of you, for which I am extremely grateful--no one cares to play it except for the audience that the site already had. That wouldn't be the case, though, if more people would just give the game a try. It makes me want to scream at the sky and pull out my hair until I'm bald. This game simply won't work on a long-term basis if people refuse to join en masse, which currently is what is happening (unless no one is actually stopping to refer anyone else which would have the same long-term effect).

One positive thing that has come out of the HGWars experience so far is that I've made a fun game. The down side is that only a few people will ever play it (and thus a game that isn't nearly as much fun as it could have been). Yet if I build the game just around that and add a bunch of features tailored to the smaller audience--which will naturally die out to nothing over the course of a few weeks, tops--then an explosion of users would then deem the game horrible because it wasn't designed to support the larger audience. It's a catch-22.

My proposed solution to this is a development system. Players will be able to develop their property with costly buildings, which will then earn additional (and significant) income. Buildings of each type will have a collective health associated with them that determines how much income they bring in for that player. If the buildings are in great shape, they bring in a lot of money--5 or 10 times the usual value of the base property on which they are built--but otherwise they bring in as little as 20% of that. Buildings lose 'health' because players will be able to rob them for significant cash gains. Once robbed, buildings can have their health returned only by investment from their owners. A system along these lines works in other browser-based MMOs and it would work here because it gives the players ways to strategize for risk-and-reward without affecting the vault.

The previous suggestion for resurrection fees also would do significant harm to the flow of the game. Is it possible to code? Absolutely. It would even be the easy way out, but it would make the whole experience quickly devolve into a frustrating, dead-end experience (no pun intended) that would chase people away or get them 'stuck' without hope for recovery.

Game balance is a tricky thing. It's even trickier in an online situation where a game's success or failure almost exclusively comes down to how quickly the number of people playing increases. There are still balance issues that could do with some tweaking, but we don't have a large enough audience for me to possibly anticipate the outcome of any tweaking. I'd be stabbing in the dark, hoping for the best and possibly breaking the game.

I will try to make progress on the development system outlined above sometime this week--maybe even in the next day or two--but I also have other obligations that already have been delayed because of HGWars development that has taken place up to this point. I can't continue to pour most or all of my time and resources into this project, as much as I would like to, particularly when it's becoming increasingly apparent that its ability to spread outside of the current community is minimal or non-existent. I won't stop work on the game until it's the best experience that I can make it, but unfortunately it looks like that best experience is severely limited right now... something that looks like it may never change.


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy on reality

"What if everything you see is more than what you see--the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it, or you accept that there is much more to the world than you think. Perhaps it really is a doorway, and if you choose to go inside, you'll find many unexpected things." - Shigeru Miyamoto


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Author: JANUS2
Posted: April 04, 2009 (02:56 PM)
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Is there a link on the front page? Maybe that would help?


"fuck yeah oblivion" - Jihad


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Author: zippdementia
Posted: April 04, 2009 (03:27 PM)
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Property systems could work... if property value was counted in the leaderboards AND if property either initially gave more value than the cost, or if the value grew over time.

And yes, other players should be able to damage property if this is the case.

But the problem still remains that unless property SIGNIFICANTLY improves in value, then the best strategy of the game is still to put money in the bank and sit on it (AKA not play the game).

I don't care how many people join up. The strategy will remain the same, and new players will either wise to it or will quit.

It's not a problem that more players will solve. It's an inherent problem with the game. It's obvious you put a lot of work into it, that's why even though it's broken in terms of strategy, I still log on. It's got style. But unless players can affect other player's positions on the leaderboard (AKA their gold), then there's no point in playing.


Note to gamers: when someone shoots you in the face, they aren't "gay." They are "psychopathic."


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Author: zigfried (Mod)
Posted: April 04, 2009 (04:13 PM)
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This is a beta, so it's still actually rather early in its life cycle. There are bound to be some balance issues. I also think it's rather early to expect new users to sign up, or for regulars to start recommending it to others... I personally wouldn't invite anyone yet, because I do see some exploits inherent in the system that should be addressed (if player retention is a goal). It's a fun game, but an infant game. I suggest that everyone just chill, let me win, and then I'll explain how I did it and how to resolve it for the next round ;)

//Zig


Unlimited Zig Works!


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Author: honestgamer (Mod)
Posted: April 04, 2009 (04:05 PM)
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Zipp, I'm not sure you understand how the property system works presently, or how I am saying that it will work in the future.

Presently, owning property is costly but that cost is paid back after a few days of regular play (the number required depends on how regularly you log into the game). Then every day you play after that, that property that has already paid for itself continues to pay dividends even as you collect money on top of that by completing jobs.

Even right now without any more changes, simply putting all of your money in the vault and letting it sit there is not a strategy that will allow you to wind up at the top of the leaderboards in the long term. Clearly you can pop right up there in the short term, but that won't matter when people start having huge income roll in that you avoided because you didn't plan ahead.

The property system that I've proposed will only increase that dynamic, and it will do so without having property start by paying more than it costs to invest in the property. Such a system wouldn't work at all because it would turn the game into a simple matter of multiplication: I buy a property and suddenly I'm earning twice the money that I invested in it every turn plus the cost of my property investment is now untouchable because I spent it on property and didn't even have to pay Chuckles a share? What kind of idiot would I have to be to not spring at that opportunity? It would be too obvious and there wouldn't be any matter of thought. All you'd do is sink every bit of money in property and there would be no down side.

A game like this works because of the down side. If the down side is eliminated, the game is no longer interesting. There is no longer any strategy or challenge involved. There's no competition between the players because it's just a test of endurance and other players are a nuisance rather than a part of any genuine strategy.

Right now, the leaderboards force strategy. Say I have 100,000G and I invest 50,000G in a property. I've just taken a hit of 50,000G on the leaderboard and I'll drop a spot or two, maybe disappear from it. However, that property starts earning me 12000G per day. 5 days from now, that 50,000G investment has turned into 60,000G and every day after that, there's another 12,000G that I wouldn't have had if I left the money in the bank. End result: in the long term--which is the most important thing to consider as you attempt to dominate the leaderboards--I came out ahead by making that investment of 50,000G turn into 300,000G.

Property would increase this effect and also add more strategy. Is it worth paying to repair my property--which may then be robbed by another player anxious for a quick cash infusion (and robbing healthy properties would yield significant rewards that jobs often wouldn't be able to touch)--for the greatly enhanced income? Or do I buy the property, build on it and then let it be robbed, but still collect a slightly improved amount of income? What will the other players be doing differently that might let them gain an advantage I can't afford to give them?

With a lot of players competing, something like this adds to the strategy. I'm not going to spend additional time and effort to add a feature that actually reduces strategy involved or makes it simpler to win by hoarding cash. Ironically, that would be the very outcome if I significantly enhance property value, or if things like property value are factored into leaderboard rankings.

I'm pleased that the amount of work I put into the game is apparent, but the bulk of that work actually went to the behind-the-scenes logic that drives the game. I'm happy to continue hearing feedback and will continue to respond to it with action as appropriate. The changes I'm proposing will yet again increase the strategy involved in winning and will give players one more reason to interact with one another.

The game as a whole requires active participants to really shine, though. I already have the URL in my sig on sites where I post, I've posted about it in social communities and I have an ad up and running on this site that displays frequently. Beyond that, I don't have the resources to do anything more and I have to rely--as always--on word of mouth that makes or breaks so many of the things that happen online.


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy on reality

"What if everything you see is more than what you see--the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it, or you accept that there is much more to the world than you think. Perhaps it really is a doorway, and if you choose to go inside, you'll find many unexpected things." - Shigeru Miyamoto


This message was administratively deleted because it did not adhere to site guidelines, or because a user other than gogspella requested its removal.

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Author: bloomer
Posted: April 04, 2009 (06:08 PM)
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Re: lack of growth. I don't think we are at the one week mark yet? This kind of thing can take months to gather critical mass. And tends to move by fits and starts. For instance, one guy whose sleeve a player has been tweaking about it finally gets around to trying it. He finds he likes it. Then he tells a few friends. Then your base goes up by 3. Weeks later one of the friend's friend's sees they're playing it and decides to try... etc. There's that 3 week pause then suddenly another splat of new activity.

Emotionally I understand the frustration that people don't immediately materialise. I'm guessing I probably have maybe more experience of having that sense than most here, having put out a lot of audience-seeking stuff over a long time. Music, webcomics, blogs, games, etc. Work on a project for a year, seemingly for 3 people. Suddenly you get more later. The main thing I've learned is the need to be patient with reception. The internet is annoying in that makes things feel more immediate than ever, but realistically, these things can and usually take a long time. Promotion and word of mouth have an effect, but it is an effect whose speed and quality are extremely unpredictable. So you should try to relax about that HG :)

What I like and which kept me glued to the game for 3 days pretty straight (which is a big compliment) is the influx of new stuff. You level, you're thinking about where to spend your stats, you're trying fighting, you're always checking what new property, jobs and gear are there when you level. ASchultz said roughly the same thing (I also want to take credit for pointing the game out to him :)) But the scale of that slows as you get up in levels. It is called HGWars, and I think the wars is the part that needs more work to work. If the answer is that having 40 players should make it work due to bounties (though I'm still hazy about that and it seems most here also are), that may take a long time to show.


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Author: zippdementia
Posted: April 04, 2009 (07:02 PM)
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If players can rob property, than that solves a lot of the concerns I have. My main concern, as stated for the third time, is that players have to be able to affect other player's spots on the leaderboards, and right now they can't.


Note to gamers: when someone shoots you in the face, they aren't "gay." They are "psychopathic."


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Author: zigfried (Mod)
Posted: April 04, 2009 (07:03 PM)
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You can affect placement via bounties. If you want to stop me from winning, place bounties on my head so that other people earn money! You just can't elevate yourself at my expense. If you want to elevate yourself, you have to come up with a strategy that works better in the long term than my strategy.

//Zig


Unlimited Zig Works!


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Author: bloomer
Posted: April 04, 2009 (07:14 PM)
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Ah, the old 'I can elevate everyone except myself and the guy I least want to see elevated' gambit!


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Author: zippdementia
Posted: April 04, 2009 (07:20 PM)
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Yeah, but you SHOULD be able to directly have an impact on an opponent's standing in the leaderboards. Otherwise it's like group solitaire.


Note to gamers: when someone shoots you in the face, they aren't "gay." They are "psychopathic."


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Author: zigfried (Mod)
Posted: April 04, 2009 (07:29 PM)
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Okay, well let's look at it a different way.

I impacted everyone's standing on the leaderboard by overtaking them. I did this by having an infallible strategy.

Cutting someone down from 50K to 10K would just be demoralizing. But being able to gain on someone -- that's a more positive experience for all.

//Zig


Unlimited Zig Works!


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